My article about the loss of Thou received some comments on the use of “could care less” instead of “couldn’t care less.”
My choice to write “Shakespeare could care less” was a deliberate one. I felt that “could care less” was more euphonious than “couldn’t care less” and sounded a bit “cheekier.” I thought that by now either form of the idiom was acceptable.
How wrong can a writer be?!
So wrong that a Google search of the phrase “could care less” garners 1,930,000 hits. Some of the discussions are quite impassioned. Although the newer form of the expression meaning “not to care at all” has been widely-used for some time, many people still regard it as an uneducated error.
Paul Brians, English professor at Washington State University, points out in an interview with Avi Arditti the difficulty of dealing with idioms that are in the process of changing:
the problem is that as [a new idiom] evolves, you get caught as a user between people who are going with the new pattern and those who know the old pattern and are comfortable with it.
Cautions Brians,
some people will disapprove or think less of you if you say it [the new] way.
He concludes that speakers and writers may choose to use the newer pattern, but that they do so at a certain risk because people who are bothered by the new pattern may be in a position to hire them, or grade their papers, or reject them as social equals.
The Oxford dictionary already recognizes “could care less” as an American colloquialism. Many people, however, regard it as incorrect since it makes no logical sense (if you “could care less” it means that you care at least a bit).
What do you think about it? Have your say in our Poll! (RSS readers will need to visit the site to take the poll).
@Guttles
That ‘could care less’ example isn’t the use that we’re talking about. It’s an idiom, you’ll never be able to make people replace it with something else. A key feature of an idiom is delexicalisation- that is, that the individual words don’t make a contribution to the overall meaning of the phrase. This phrase is sorta halfway there, to the point where words can change (could/couldn’t) but the overall meaning stays the same to the people who use it. I mean, why don’t people get all spergy about how candles only have one end? Or moan about the lack of midnight oil?
i understand what you’re saying. my point is that idioms are retarded. there is absolutely no necessary use for them. an idiom is just a fancy name for slang. i couldn’t care less means exactly what it implies, i don’t care. therefore it shouldn’t be considered an idiom at all. now, i could care less, should be considered an idiom. but, only if you mean the opposite “i don’t care” when you say it. otherwise, i could care less means exactly what it says. that being said, people assuming that you’re saying something other than what you’re saying is ignorance. such as assuming that a person is saying “i don’t care” just because they said “i could care less.” okay lets summarize. i couldn’t care less = proper, word for word at that. and i could care less = proper or idiom, depending on the speakers intended meaning of the phrase. and, the listener does not dictate the meaning of the speaker. and to everyone that says that americans butchered the english language. just how do you think english came to be?
in other words, it depends on the intent of the speaker/author/journalist etc.
@Bastards!! and sk
as for i couldn’t care less implying that you care somewhat. that’s plain wrong. you say it because someone else needs to know that you simply don’t care.
> my point is that idioms are retarded.
Well, now you’ve convinced me. Thanks for that erudite analysis!
Seriously… that’s a silly argument. I think health insurance companies are retarded, but it doesn’t mean I can make them go away or that they don’t fulfill a certain function whether I like it or not.
> shouldn’t be considered an idiom at all.
Well it clearly is an idiom, because like I said, people can replace a word within the phrase with another while retaining the original intentionality of meaning. The individual words mean different things, but a key feature of an idiom is that meaning is not derived from the individual words.
You mention that the listener/reader doesn’t dictate meaning. Neither does the speaker; meaning is derived through negotiation, and clearly some are willing to accept that both variations of the phrase mean “I don’t care”.
As for idioms being slang, that’s an interesting point. Both slang and prefabricated language are extremely creative forms of expression which may or may not be appropriate in a particular set of circumstances. I don’t know if I believe that idiom=slang though.
When someone tells me they could care less I always ask them how much less. Then I usually have to explain it to them.
AKO, I’m sure they leave that conversation thinking you’re a great guy/gal! 😉
AKO, keep fighting the good fight!
John Ireland, it’s really interesting to learn the origins of ‘I could care less’, but if this is the usage people intend, I think they should at least understand the concept. Not invent ridiculous ‘explanations’ that make no sense at all – Bastards!!, sk, incompetent et al, I’m talking to you!
I find it amusing to be called an ‘English Nazi’ just because I care about using language correctly. Sigh. Dumbing down of society, indeed.
@ Elly (I’m talking to you!)
It must really suck to be you. Somehow, for all your brilliance, you can’t even understand the difference between proper English and an idiotmatic expression that has been around for over 50 years. Yeah…you’re REALLY smart.
So this entire argument boils down to the same old dull debate, description vs prescription?
Elly: Is ‘proper’ English written or spoken? If ‘proper’ English can be spoken, what do you think about the grammar of spoken language? Those aren’t snarky quote marks by the way, I’m genuinely interested.
Originated in the 1950s with the phrase ‘as if I could care less’
The ‘as if’ was dropped, but still maintains the same meaning as ‘could care less.’
Coincidence?
The smart people are those who correct others when they hear ‘could care less’ – the dictionarily accepted term – due to a lack of familiarity with the phrase and its origin. I wonder if that sentence means literally what it says?
An American shibboleth to assist us in spotting the Europeans 🙂
Hmmm… “shibboleth”…
Thanks for that. A new word a day, and that was a new one for me today. The stories behind it are quite neat:
But I do wonder if the Americans in this forum would agree that only non-Americans (Brazilian speaking here) would have antibodies against this expression.
logically, to me,
could care less means you do not care anything more than an atom in measurement
could not care less means you care MORE
Clearly you do, all-caps warrior.
I always say, “I could not care less”.
Uttered either way, the idiom or phrase must be effective in communicating the position (and just the right attitude) of the speaker, else it would not endure.
It’s sad that it has the ‘american’ added to it in the dictionary though. Americans already have a reputation for being ignorant of the rest of the world and the sheer stupidity of people who use the phrase ‘could care less’ is sad because it is an obvious logical error that people should realize.
I think it is a good example of groupthink that is happening in society today where people pick up phrases they don’t even know the meaning to. It would be interesting to know if americans use the term more than other english speaking countries.
Whoever did originally come up with “could care less” as the expression should be remembered as the village dullard, who can only be credited for making the English language just a little bit more obnoxious.
I must say that after reading all these comments, I no longer find “I could care less” quite so irritating. In fact I quite like it (with appropriate sarcasm) and might even use it [though I might find myself adding a qualifier or two]. In addition I have become amused at my former irritation!
Perhaps us “couldn’t care less” preferers first encountered someone using the phrase “could care less” (when obviously the person couldn’t) in written text rather than spoken. Consequently the appropriate tone of voice is not apparent. But now we should know better!
Wow! Honestly speaking, I’m quite struggling with my spoken English at the moment and is doing my best to be fluent and eloquent somehow through a number of ways.
Anyway, as for that “couldn’t care less” vs “could care less” matter, In my opinion, I think both phrases are distinctively different in meaning. “couldn’t care less” could be translated into “I don’t care even the smallest amount of the spectrum to that matter” whereas the latter could be translated into “I care with the tiniest degree of care”.
But, kudos to all posters 🙂 I learned plenty of sensible things with my time reading all your post not the usual rubbish actually.
“I could care less” works poorly as a colloquialism to represent “I don’t care”, which is what most people mean when they say it. Were it a phrase that otherwise made no sense then it would be fine to attribute the intended meaning to it, but “I could care less” is a simple sentence with a valid literal meaning, and that literal meaning is the OPPOSITE of the intended meaning of the colloquialism.
If people started using “the sky is red” to mean “the sky is blue”, then what about when people actually want to say that the sky is red? Without further explanation (which would defeat the purpose of using a short expression) what hint is there to guide the reader to the correct interpretation? It’s very silly to replace the grammatically correct literal meaning of a sentence with its opposite simply because people have fallen into the habit of using it in that way. The people who pick up this phrase are obviously not paying attention to the words themselves and are instead accepting it as a “saying”, a colloquial expression.
I tend to think it is poor use of the language. Sure, there may be an origin (the longer phrase some people have mentioned above) but when the reduced version makes perfect sense as a literal sentence, how are people who have not been exposed to the original phrase or the intended meaning of the shortened version supposed to understand? It’s a needless and illogical convolution of the English language.
When ” n’t ” is all that is required to make the sentence literally mean what is intended by it, “I could care less” comes across much more like an error than it does a colloquialism, and no matter how many more people learn the origin behind it, there will always be people to whom “I could care less” will just look like a failure to understand the basic rules of the language.
seriously, I could care less. Now cringe…hahaha
Honestly would you really say “I could agree more” as opposed to “I couldn’t agree more”? Now ask yourself which sounds incorrect. “I could care Less” or “I couldn’t care less”?
This debate has now become a moot point.
I’m surprised that nobody mentioned the common expressions, “Things could be worse” and “Things couldn’t be worse.” They have different meanings, which we can interpret from the combination of individual words, rather than from a prior knowledge of an idiomatic use of the entire expression. I’m sure you wouldn’t decide to use the first when you meant the second simply because the first sounded “more euphonious.”
I was surprised to hear William Peterson, who plays the great intellectual and language fanatic Gil Grissom in CSI use “could care less” in a description of Grissom’s character. I know Will isn’t Gill but I thought there was something of an irony there!
I would just like to say that American English IS its own language. (I’m talking to you uk) Why compare our version to your own. Your statements imply that all Americans are dumb and lazy. That’s like me saying all of the British are (for lack of a better word) racist and don’t know how to brush their teeth. Also I should point out that people don’t say, “should of,” they say, “should’ve (which translates to SHOULD HAVE)” Also people shouldn’t get worked up over such a little thing. I myself have realized the grammatical error when people use it, BUT that’s just it. It is just a grammatical error, nothing more nothing less. (Just so future commentors know, I use the phrase, (I couldn’t care less) <—— not a typo. Also no sarcasm in my comment.
I think that the expression “couldn’t care less” is more ambiguous than most people realize. Because people are familiar with its intended use they do not see that it could also mean : “I care so much about this issue that I could not according to my character and ethics care less about it than I do” ie. “I really care about this issue”
On the other hand to say “I COULD care less” implies that this issue is of little importance.
ugh it has always bothered me when people say that they “can care less” when clearly they mean it as they dont care. such a pet peeve! please stop saying this
I hear “could care less” a lot on American TV. If the intention of the individual was to say that they care to a degree on a particular subject and that it would therefore be possible for them to “care less”, then that’s fine.
However, in the context of the conversation as a whole it’s clear that this is not what they mean to say at all. In fact what they mean is that they don’t care at all in which case saying that it’s possible for them to care less about the subject is contradictory and therefore an obvious mistake.
The expression is “couldn’t care less” and it means that you don’t care about a given subject.
The phrase “could care less” is not an expression at all – it’s just labelled as such by individuals who are embarrassed that they have been caught out using the actual expression incorrectly. This embarrassment is understandable as the correct expression is pretty straightforward and so to get it so wrong implies either carelessness or frankly, stupidity.
I see from the comments above me that others seem to be struggling with this, so let’s look at another example. Would any of you ever say “I could give a damn” about a subject that you regard as unimportant or irrelevant?
“I couldn’t give a damn” – I care so little about this that I would not even give a damn about it.
“I could give a damn” – I care enough about this to give a damn about it.
These pretty much mean the same thing, yet you would only ever use the first one under such circumstances. The fact that you would only ever use “couldn’t give a damn” in this case and yet would be happy to use “could care less” shows that the problem is that you don’t understand what “couldn’t care less” means; not that you are deliberately trying to invent some new expression that means the opposite of what you are trying to say – which is frankly ridiculous.
Wow! A four year argument suggests that both forms are likely here to stay. It also suggests that you all do appear to care a fair bit.
Personally, I use “couldn’t care less” if I use it all, but when I hear it from others, I try not to miss the point by judging the form. The phrase that bugs me is “for all intensive purposes…” instead of “intents and purposes”! That’s one I hear all the time!
I still cannot see the poll anywhere
“could care less” means this to me: I want to express that I don’t care, but the very act of expression shows that I DO care on some level, and this form acknowledges that fact.
There is no logic in arguing this. It has come to a point where people have already given meaning and reason to either phrase and both can be correctly used depending on the context.
I could care less when I could. If I couldn’t then I couldn’t. Who are you to quantify how little I care about that said subject? I care enough to respond but can care less when the topic is done. Or is that amount of care the least quantity I’m willing to have and I couldn’t have it any lower?
Phrases are far more flexible than definitions of individual words. To simply brush off the meaning behind why it’s used by saying that it makes no sense means you’re not really listening.
The important thing is not what is used, but why it is used.
I’m glad I stumbled across this site; it’s very enlightening on a lot of matters, and it’s refreshing to see that I’m not alone in being extremely irked by the ubiquity of this usage.
It’s amusing to read how some will go to such great lengths to justify their [incorrect] use of language. If you have to explain it THAT much, it probably wasn’t right to begin with.
Also, there’s at least one in every barrel… someone will inevitably show up whenever a correct form is being discussed, and lash out at everyone who’s apparently being a Grammar Nazi of some sort for daring to know the correct form and stand up for it.
@Jenn – “for all intensive purposes” is an eggcorn. There are a ton of them, and they’re all pretty interesting. Also, Russell Hoban’s book Riddley Walker uses them quite a lot.
@mike – what do you think of descriptive grammar versus prescriptive?
I don’t actually understand how people here are trying to say
‘I could care less’ means they don’t care and that
‘I couldn’t care less’ means they really care.
I can’t comprehend how some people have interpretted these wrong.
‘I couldn’t care less’ – The person cannot care less than their level of care now. Without any other information, you can assume their level of caring = zero. You have no more information so you cannot assume they care loads about this.
‘I could care less’ – The person can care less than their level of care. Without any other information, you can only assume their level of caring =/= zero because you can’t have anything less than apathy. If it does, then they could have ‘negative care’, which implies some kind of revusion or hatred, but would also mean they ‘care’ about it because you always take the modulus of the care value (e.g. I might care about global warming, but it doesn’t mean I like it).
—
Let’s invert this for a moment. Instead of ‘less’ let us say ‘more’.
If I said ‘I couldn’t care more’ and provide no more information, you HAVE to assume I’m at my maximum caring capacity. You can’t just think ‘Ok, well he is at 4% caring and can’t care any more, so he doesn’t really care’ as that’s adding your own info.
If I said ‘I could care more’ and provide no more information then you HAVE to assume that I’ve still got caring capacity available. However, I could be almost at capacity, say 99%. Or then I could be at 0% caring, meaning I don’t care at all.
Both ‘I could care more/less’ have a lot of ambiguity in them. Both ‘I couldn’t care more/less’ have a lot less ambiguity because you have to assume maximum/minimum caring capacity. If you don’t then you are providing your own information, and without all the facts you are wrong.
E.g. Someone says ‘I couldn’t like cheese more’ I assume he really likes cheese. I can’t assume that he really hates cheese and cannot like it more because it brings him out in a rash and he gets attacked by mice, because that’s me making stuff up.
Oh lol, large post.
Maceo has ended any argument with his/her comparison.
This should go on (for you ‘could care les’s sayers).
Really what I meant to say is “This shouldn’t go on.”
Wow, what an incredibly long argument.
It has been an excellent diversion from the problems of the day. Thank you all – especial Maceo.
Now I shall weigh in, and see if my insight can tip the scales.
I support the “couldn’t care less” phrase as correct usage.
It clearly and logically indicates how much you care. On that point alone it is exactly the same as the phrase “could care less”.
However, the difference lies in the meaning:
Semantically, “couldn’t care less” indicates how much you care – and that amount is zero, because that amount cannot be less.
Semantically, “could care less” indicates how much you care – and that amount is some, because that amount can be less. Depending on the size of your “some”, you may actually care quite a lot.
Addressing the argument that “could care less” is a sarcastic form of “couldn’t care less”, I have to disagree.
Simply changing an affirmative form into a negative or opposite form doesn’t necessarily deliver sarcasm. Sarcasm revolves, by necessity, on the truth of a given situation.
If Bob were a fat man, and we called him thin to communicate that, then that would be sarcasm; not because thin is the opposite of fat, but because thin is the opposite of Bob’s situation.
Saying “nice shot” to a friend in a game of pool can only be sarcastic when the shot was not nice, and the situation is obvious.
“Lovely weather today” when it is raining is sarcastic to the beachgoer, but genuine to the farmer who has been in a drought for 4 years.
The important thing controlling whether something qualifies as sarcasm or not is the situation, and given that the situation – i.e., how much you care – is unknown, then the sarcastic effect is nil, because a comment seeking to be its opposite has no point of reference from which to juxtapose.
So, what the phrases both mean is clear. While their meanings are approximately opposite, the attempt to communicate the meaning of the original by removing the grammatical negative component in the hope it will be understood as sarcasm demonstrates a lack of understanding of sarcasm itself.
So on that basis alone it would seem that “couldn’t care less” is correct usage, while “could care less” is what the cool kids these days would (or should?) call a “sarcasm fail” .
I could care less about this. — Big deal!!!!!!
I am astounded that this has gone on as long as it has! I am in the camp of those who say, “I couldn’t care less.” for all the logical reasons. When others say to me, “I could care less.” I say or think, “Well then, why don’t you?”
But I digress.
This debate reminds me of a saying a maid we had once used to say to me as a child. (Being 72 now means that this goes back a long, long way.) When she didn’t care less she would say, “It don’t make no never-you-mind.”
See if you can figure out what THAT means!
It’s my understanding that “I could care less” was originally followed by a question mark, which got dropped along with the proper inflection at some point.
“I could care less?” equals “I couldn’t care less”
I occasionally hate “could care less” with a passion, but there are other times I remind myself how I accientally say things improperly once in a while.
The people trying to say this is sarcasm clearly don’t understand sarcasm and in that case I can see why they don’t understand the logical arguement.
I’m going to try saying “I could care less” about things I actually care somewhat about just in an effort to confuse people.
If you don’t care about something, at all, the correct saying would be “I couldn’t care less”. No argument from me there, but I also think “I could care less” is acceptable, if you are trying to be very sarcastic. Like when someone tells you something that you don’t believe for a second, and you reply “YEAH, RIGHT!”
This whole discussion has been wildly entertaining! (That’s just sad, isn’t it?)
Imagine a computer asking a second computer in a monotone, robotic voice, “Do…you…care…about…politics?” Assuming the 2nd computer doesn’t, “I couldn’t care less” is the only response that will end the conversation. If it said, “I could care less,” the first computer would have no choice but to ask follow-up questions to determine its level of care. Logically, “couldn’t care less” is the only one that makes sense.
Some have argued that “couldn’t care less” means that one cares a lot and cannot let that level of care drop, for whatever reason. That’s ridiculous. No one in the history of the world who’s cared about something has responded with “I couldn’t care less,” when asked if they cared about it.
The sarcasm argument makes no sense either. I think people are confusing a sarcastic tone with actual sarcasm. Noo stated it very well a few posts above. Sarcasm depends on stating the opposite. If one doesn’t care and says, “I could care less,” they aren’t stating the opposite. True sarcasm would be something like, “Oh yeah, I love all the fighting and question evading in politics!!!” Tone doesn’t necessarily make something sarcastic. However, sarcasm always requires a certain tone if it’s to be understood as sarcasm.
I believe that the, “I could care less,” folks out there know what they are trying to say, say it the way they know it, and are okay with that because most people, me included, know exactly what they mean. Their lives are probably way better than mine because right now they’re out at a club somewhere with their friends, partying and letting everyone know that they could care less that the music is really loud, and meanwhile I’m sitting at my computer responding to an argument that will have no end, vaguely bothered by the uncomfortable certainty that I’ve wasted a sizable portion of my evening and have to go to bed pretty soon.
Saying it without “not” is not a new form. Saying ax instead of ask isn’t “the new form” just because enough lazy people say it. They are both a butchering of the language. They are both wrong.
It is very sad that someone that claims to give out tips has so many problems with grasping basic English.
I couldn’t care less about this forum
This may have been said already, but I haven’t read past 2009, so I don’t know. I notice when people use “could care less” in the wrong way, but I don’t correct them. In my experience, it is more common in everyday speech than online. I usually have no reason to use it in everyday speech. When I use it online, it’s usually to shut somebody up and claim victory in the argument, but that rarely works. There really is no good reason to use it seriously, online or off. If I really “couldn’t” care less about something, I would probably just smile and nod while the other person said whatever, or have long since left the conversation altogether. If I really “could” care less, by a little bit, I probably wouldn’t bother to say so. If I could care less, by a great deal, meaning that I really do care, then it should be pretty obvious. The only reason I am even thinking about this right now is that Imogen Lloyd Webber was on TV the other day talking about some of the odd differences in British/American English ,and she said that she found it odd that Americans used the phrase “couldn’t care less”. I was surprised, because I figured that would be the phrase that the British used.
Custom sometimes controls over correctness. The phrase “I could care less” has been used by the.sergeants in the U S.Army for generations to register their lack of concern and sympathy.for a poor recruit’s problems. I first heard it 50 years ago, wondered about it, and then began to care less myself. I wonder of Enifishmen with.military expwrience heardthe same talk in the.ranks.