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A recent DWT post about hyphen use (Chocolate covered or Chocolate-covered) prompted a discussion about the use of a period with the titles Mr. and Mrs. Here are some of the comments:
i was taught not to type a full stop after Mr and Mrs, but a few decades earlier that would have been incorrect.
[Responding to i was taught not to type a full stop after Mr and Mrs]
Seriously?I was probably taught Mr. etc at school – can’t remember – but learning to type we were told not to use the full stop.
I’ve no way of knowing the location of these readers. Their experiences may be related to where they went to school.
Whether or not to place a period after Mr. and Mrs. depends upon whether you are following American or British usage.
In my American education I was taught to place a period after these abbreviations:
The rule is to place a period after each abbreviation…
Abbreviations of the following titles…are proper in any writing: Mr., Mrs., Messrs., Dr. –Walsh Handbook
In those bad old days, Miss was commonly used to address unmarried women. Although the title (like Mrs.) is a shortened form of “mistress,” no period was felt to be necessary: Dear Miss Jones…
According to British usage, if the abbreviation ends with the same letter as the word entire, no period is necessary:
Mr (Mister)
Mrs (Mistress)
Dr (Doctor)
If the abbreviation ends with a letter other than the one that ends the whole word, a period is called for:
Prof. (Professor)
Capt. (Captain)
French usage is similar:
Mlle (Mademoiselle)
Mme (Madame)
M. (Monsieur)
The invented title Ms. has widely displaced Miss on both sides of the Atlantic. Ms conflates Miss and Mrs to provide a feminine form that, like Mr, does not indicate marital status.
British usage: Ms Jones
American usage: Ms. Jones
Although British usage makes more sense to me, I am careful to write the periods after Mr, Mrs, Ms and Dr on American correspondence.
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I’ve always wondered…
P.S. Calling someone “Mrs” is kind of awkward for me, since I live in the South, and here we call all ladies “Miss [First Name or Last if She's Cranky]”
How about writing a period after “etc” inside sentences? I personaly prefer the version with period, but it may look confusing as the period breaks the flow of the thought in two.
It’s worth noting that even some titles such as Prof are commonly also written without a period in the UK. An example would be the astons on BBC News (TV) where no dots are added on anyone’s title when displayed on-screen.
I always flip back and forth on abbreviating vice president – v.p., V.P., or VP? (I usually go with the latter when its paired up with GM – general manager, CFO, CEO, COO…)
My problem stems from years working in sports and abbreviating positions on various teams and not using periods, or the postal abbreviations for the states.
I work mainly in medical transcription these days, and the trend has been to leave off periods. They add so much clutter to a document, and especially in medical documents, when you’re looking for information fast (test results, a name, a number, a particular word or phrase in a long block of text), too much punctuation snags your eyes and distracts you from what you need to find. I agree with Lamanai, that a period in the middle of a sentence (ie after an abbreviation) almost makes you think you have to stop there. I think that if it is a common abbreviation, you can probably leave out the period. Also, VP is not really an abbreviation, it’s more of an acronym, and again, most people would understand what VP stands for, in context, especially since it could not be mistaken for a word (unlike COO, for example). The USPS protocol for addresses is now just 2 letters and no punctuation, as in New York NY 10001.
I’m the Brit who wrote ‘I was probably taught Mr. etc at school – can’t remember – but learning to type we were told not to use the full stop,’ and all my education has been in the UK (except the part where i was learning Japanese, but that’s not relevant!).
As far as i remember i was taught not to use a full stop (sorry, can’t bring myself to call it a period) after any punctuation – whether of the Mr or Prof variety. The main reason i was given was the point sherry roth makes above about clutter. Over a long document it can be the difference between fitting onto one page and needing another, if the piece of writing has a high incidence of etc, UNESCO, and so on. And it can be ambiguous if that full stop happens to fall at the end of a line and look like the end of a sentence.
This is one instance of my greatly preferring the British way without any influence from being British!
I have seen the French M for Monsieur with no following full stop, presumably for consistency with Mme and Mlle
I’ve always assumed Miss was written without a full stop (in older works that do use one for Mrs etc) because ‘Miss’ is the word we say, not an abbreviation, while ‘Mrs’ is really Missus and ‘Mr’ Mister, etc. Being historically both contractions of mistress is nothing to do with it – i’ve always thought – any more than the fact that lunch is short for luncheon.
I know i am a grammar geek but this one is making me feel it’s all a bit too pernickety to worry about! (And you thought nothing would bring me to that point!) Only when it comes to sticking to a publisher’s house style can i believe it really matters. ;0)
Hell, long comment.
It would make it easier if Mr or Mrs did not take a period. But then again, how much easier does our dumbed down language have to be? Wait, the answer to that question can be answered by taking a trip to youtube and reading some of the worst examples of the English language on display anywhere. In any regard, what will we gain by saving all those periods? Before long they would be stockpiled past the ceiling and there would be another national crisis with which to deal. I say keep the periods in Mrs. and Mr. Or, in the least, to economize, spell one with the period and one without. That would be fair, wouldn’t it?
I guess I would consider it fair if the Mr got the period. I, for one, think that women have had enough of them.
Seriously though, this has nothing to do with dumbing down. This is a matter of keeping things clean, uncluttered and efficient, without sacrificing readability or the ability to comprehend the material without double-takes. I would go for stockpiling small dots to the ceiling in favor of wasting reams of paper because they take up the space there (as mand pointed out). Eliminate periods, save trees! LOL
I personally like the periods after the abbreviations. It seems more formal.
Oh well…
As far as i remember i was taught not to use a full stop (sorry, can’t bring myself to call it a period)
But it’s not a full stop. A full stop ends a sentence; the dot after “Mr.”, etc., doesn’t function as a full stop (or any kind of stop at all). I’ve been known to call it a “period” precisely to distinguish it from a “full stop”…but I just looked up “period” in the OED and the relevant definition is, in fact, “full stop”, so I’ll try to avoid that in future. The OED calls it a “point” in this usage.
FWIW, I’m a native English- (as opposed to American) speaker, but I’ve never heard of the “if the abbreviation ends with the same letter as the word” rule mentioned in the article.
@10 Peter – I’ve always called it a full stop, but can’t remember if i was ever told to or told not to. To me, point is for maths.
btw i’ve never heard of that rule either.
@9 sherry – I agree, it’s nothing to do with dumbing down. ‘I would go for stockpiling small dots to the ceiling’ I wonder if paper can be made out of small dots; if so it would help the economy… ;0)
@2 Lamanai – I often find a stop (i may take to calling it just a ’stop’) after etc brings in ambiguity.
Another thought: Although i do refer to what i was taught and what i find prescribed as ‘correct usage’, i’m comfortable changing that if i have a reason. (You can tell that, by my use of i for I.) As long as i’m following rules and not simply using the language randomly or carelessly, i prefer its skeleton to be as i prefer my own skeleton to be: pain-free, untroublesome to use, functioning as i expect, and strong.
Lamanai – looked at your site and love your music. 80)
2mand – Oh, thanks a lot! I’d never hope anyone from abroad, especially from sites focused on quite different topics would visit my site! But that’s so nice to hear! Thanks once again…
I’m in favor of keeping the periods in Mr. and Mrs. and Dr. and Prof. I guess for some reason in my head, if the abbreviation is done in all caps, it doesn’t need a period. However, if shortening a word and its Caps and lower case, then I’ve reasoned with myself that a period is necessary.
I’m just hoping that 15 years from now were still writing in full words and not just in texting terms. (Which my sister’s 4th graders have already tried to do on their homework)
…shuttering….
I think people are too obsessed with periods and would be better off focusing on apostrophes and proper spelling…and for informal exchanges that sometimes have character limits (like txt msgs), wutz rong w/makng ur msg shortr?
Thanks for explaining so clearly.
English is my second language and I like to stick to one form [British vs US]. I choose British for the reason of quotation. To always place the punctuation within a quotation looks strange to me. Dutch in this respect is similar to British.
Now I am researching all the other differences so I can be consequent in my writing. Thanks for this info.
I’ve also noticed that the British system uses a period instead of a colon to indicate the time. Example 9.00 for 9:00. Anybody know the reasoning for that? Interesting post!
@18. Amy P. -
That’s funny, i’ve noticed that the US system uses a colon instead of a stop to indicate the time. lol
Seriously, though, i have no idea why the difference. I thought of it as the ‘old’ way and the ‘new’ way, assuming the colon was taken from the LCD display on a digital clock. The colon is as common as the stop now anyway (if not more) cos everything online and in the media is American… Well, not everything but it seems it sometimes. ;0)
Its odd. I never knew that the extension of their backyard meant so much to them.
Traditionally in Standard English (or “British” English as Americans call it) abbreviations take a full-stop, thus “Mr.”, “Mrs.”, “Dr.” etc. When I was at school in England in the 70’s we were still being taught to put a full-stop after an abbreviation. The ommission of full-stops in the U.K. is a modernism, not part of traditional Standard English.
Someone tell me please, what’s with the i and I?
If you mean my use of ‘i’, Hanan, definitely don’t copy that. It’s my own quirk, partly ‘philosophy’ (why should ‘i’ deserve a capital?) and largely to save holding two keys at once with arthritic fingers. I do a capital ‘I’ in handwriting for the same reason – less finger activity! Think of it as an unusual speaking accent, not speaking but typing. ;0)
I am pleased to no end with this article. Typing a period after Mr is a pain, especially when writing a script. Now I am exonerated. Now Mr Smith can go to Washington and Mr T can pity some fool.
LOL Vic…the only advantage I can see to using all these periods (eg after Mr, Mrs, Dr etc) is that if you’re lucky and the stars are in proper alignment and the word-processing gods are in a good mood, the word AFTER the abbreviation-with-the-period will be capitalized automatically, so it might be a trade-off in terms of keystrokes. If you don’t put a period, you have to press the shift key for the next character (eg the “W” in Washington). If you put the period (eg after “Mr.”), your computer should capitalize “Washington” for you without any further effort or thought on your part. However, this is a double-edged sword, as there are times when you will NOT want the next word to start with a capital letter. I’m sure there are many cases, but one that comes to mind would be if you insist on putting periods in an acronym like VP, making it V.P., followed by a descriptor such as “of marketing.” So if your word processor automatically (and thoughtlessly) capitalizes the next character, you could end up with “V.P. Of marketing,” which looks really stupid. If, however, you just go with “VP of marketing,” you are much better off.
Mand, yes, I meant your use of “i”, you’ve got a point:):)