which or where in relative couses

[Heaven]

Hi all,

I dont know i can ask my English questions here or not . i try to find!

Why can't we use " where" in both below sentences?
I found answer of above qustion till now ! it is because :
"where", being an adverb, can hardly play the role of subject of a relative clause

1.Glasgow , where my brother lives , is the largest city in Scotland
2.We often go to visit our friends in Bristol ,which is not very far away.
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But about below sentece I cant get it at all why we can't use "where" ,instead of "which ":

3.We stayed at the Park hotel , which a friend of ours recommended .

"a friend of ours " can be "he " or "she" so it can be a pronoun and we dont need relative pronoun in this sentence and we are talking about a place , so why we can't use " where". what is the point i couldnt get it , please?

Many thanks in advance
Heaven

[QuillingQuillQuiller]

1.Glasgow , where my brother lives , is the largest city in Scotland.
where (conjunction; at, in, or to which place; the town where he lives at)

You may skip for those commas because Subject stands independently without a single verb is attached;
con: Glasgow where my brother lives at is the largest city in Scotland. (where + at)
or better with;
adj: My brother lives at Glasgow which is the largest city in Scotland.

2. We often go to visit our friends in Bristol ,which is not very far away.

-"go to visit" should use "visited", because was followed by "often" (We mentioned about something that was happened in past time).
"going to + verb" is used to tell about something will be done in the future, but not now. In this statement, we're trying to tell about something in the past.

-You may omit the "away", because "very...away" is adding pressure to "far" which means "extreme far". It's contrarily used with the denial of "not". You may also omit the "very" to show a plain and straight statement, because it only adds a small effect to the statement.

The statement before comma had pointed out that they live in Bristol. The rest clause is missing something.
"which is not far" sounds ambiguous. What is not far?
" ... which (missed something) is ... "

Or; "... which is not far (+from "where")."
"... which is not far from my uncle's home." (For example).
(We can't link the Bristol under this condition, because it's belonged to the first part.)

As a result, we may finish the statement without a single comma:
(They are living not far from Bristol.)

We often visited our friends which home is not far from Bristol.

We may also switch to "near to",

We often visited our friends which home is near to Bristol.

You may as well use "where" in:

Not far from Bristol where our friends live at was often visited (by us). (where + at)
Near to Bristol where our friends live at was often visited (by us). (where + at)

3.We stayed at the Park hotel , which a friend of ours recommended.

"a friend of ours" may be switched to "our friend".

We stayed at Park hotel which was recommended by our friends.
or
We stayed at, which was our friend's recommendation, Park hotel. (Be careful to put the Preposition of "at" in here.)

You may use "where" in,

Park hotel where we stayed at was recommended by our friend. (where + at)

~~~
Oh by the way, the usage of comma comes along; without a space before and with a space after.

I invite you, your parents, and your friends.
They are white, black, and gray.

~~~
Using the quotation marks ("...") always without spaces.
"I was inside the quotation marks," says the man who is outside of them now.

He tells the girl, "I love you."
"I love you too," replies her back.

The teacher announces, "Tomorrow is a holiday."
"Hooray!" cheer the students.

He told me, "It's written 'West' on the map."
"No, it's 'East'," objected me while was driving the car.

~~~
In standard English writing, it's advisable to avoid a statement which starts with a comma clause.
Anyone wants to add?

____________________________
"Brief but not short."
Best regards,

Budi

[Maeve]

Heaven,
The word where has many uses in English.

In your Glasgow example, it is being used as a connecting word in the same way a relative pronoun is used. It has the sense of "place in which" or "place at which."

In the Park hotel sentence, which is appropriate because hotel is being thought of as a thing and not as a place.

Compare:
We stayed at the Park hotel, which a friend of ours recommended.
with
We stayed at the Park hotel, where we first met.

[Heaven]

Budi & Maeve,

Thank you so much for your replies . In fact I haven't read any of them yet cause i couldn't read it before send a thank you message instantly .you made me suprise with your replies ....

Many thanks again,

[Heaven]

Howdy Budi & Maeve,

via your text, budi, i came across to these questions:

1. Could I skip commas in below sentence, too. because Subject stands independently without a single verb is attached even it be a phrase ?

My brother Rob, who lives in Australia, is a doctor.

"My brother Rob" doesn't have any verb with.so i could write:
My brother Rob who lives in Australia is a doctor.

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2. It's contrarily used with the denial of "not".
Does it Mean I should use "away" in positive sentences?

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3. Could it used "whose" in below sentence instead of "which" ?If not, what is the reason please?
We often visit our friends which home is not far from Bristol.

I guess it seems like this:
We often visit our friends their home is not far from Bristol.and i should use "whose" instead od "their."

Thank you so much for your perfect answer and points.

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via your text, Maeve:

As you said :
"where" is being used as a connecting word in the same way a relative pronoun is used. It has the sense of "place in which" or "place at which."
So both below sentences are correct:

We stayed at the Park hotel, which a friend of ours recommended.
We stayed at the Park Hotel, where a friend of ours joined to us

Could I get the point?

Thank you so much for your helpful quidance and examples.
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It would be immensely appreciated if you help me to know the answers. :)
many thanks again

[DanielScocco]

Heaven, regarding the question "My brother Rob who lives in Australia is a doctor," I think you can write that sentence both with and without commas. I think it is a matter of style and personal preference.

Personally, though, I would use the commas there to make the thoughts flow better.

[Maeve]

Heaven,
Your sentences:

We stayed at the Park hotel, which a friend of ours recommended.
We stayed at the Park Hotel, where a friend of ours joined to us

are both correct as regards the use of which and where.

In the second sentence, the word to is not needed:
...where a friend of ours joined us.

[Maeve]

Heaven writes:
My brother Rob, who lives in Australia, is a doctor.

"My brother Rob" doesn't have any verb with.so i could write:
My brother Rob who lives in Australia is a doctor.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "My brother Rob" doesn't have a verb. "My brother Rob" is the subject of the verb "is."

The sentence requires the commas because the clause "who lives in Australia" is a non-restrictive clause. That means that the clause is not required to give meaning to the main clause, which is "My brother Rob is a doctor."

The general rule is to set off a non-restrictive clause with commas.

An example of a restrictive clause:

Boys who study will learn.

Here the clause "who study" contributes to the meaning of the main clause.

[Maeve]

Btw,
It would be useful if each post could deal with just one item of grammar.

3. Could it used "whose" in below sentence instead of "which" ?If not, what is the reason please?
We often visit our friends which home is not far from Bristol.

I guess it seems like this:
We often visit our friends their home is not far from Bristol.and i should use "whose" instead od "their."

You would write:
We often visit our friends, whose home is not far from Bristol.

If you wanted to express the same thoughts in two sentences, you could write:
We often visit our friends. Their home is not far from Bristol.

[DanielScocco]

Yes good point Maeve, I will keep more attention to organize it.

[Heaven]

Maeve,

My warmest regards and thanks for your helpful assistant.

All the best,
:)

[Heaven]

Hi Daniel,

Thank you so much for your answer .

The very best,
:)

[Tom Connolly]

1.Glasgow , where my brother lives , is the largest city in Scotland.
where (conjunction; at, in, or to which place; the town where he lives at)

You may skip for those commas because Subject stands independently without a single verb is attached;
con: Glasgow where my brother lives at is the largest city in Scotland. (where + at)
or better with;
adj: My brother lives at Glasgow which is the largest city in Scotland.

2. We often go to visit our friends in Bristol ,which is not very far away.

-"go to visit" should use "visited", because was followed by "often" (We mentioned about something that was happened in past time).
"going to + verb" is used to tell about something will be done in the future, but not now. In this statement, we're trying to tell about something in the past.

-You may omit the "away", because "very...away" is adding pressure to "far" which means "extreme far". It's contrarily used with the denial of "not". You may also omit the "very" to show a plain and straight statement, because it only adds a small effect to the statement.

The statement before comma had pointed out that they live in Bristol. The rest clause is missing something.
"which is not far" sounds ambiguous. What is not far?
" ... which (missed something) is ... "

Or; "... which is not far (+from "where")."
"... which is not far from my uncle's home." (For example).
(We can't link the Bristol under this condition, because it's belonged to the first part.)

As a result, we may finish the statement without a single comma:
(They are living not far from Bristol.)

We often visited our friends which home is not far from Bristol.

We may also switch to "near to",

We often visited our friends which home is near to Bristol.

You may as well use "where" in:

Not far from Bristol where our friends live at was often visited (by us). (where + at)
Near to Bristol where our friends live at was often visited (by us). (where + at)

3.We stayed at the Park hotel , which a friend of ours recommended.

"a friend of ours" may be switched to "our friend".

We stayed at Park hotel which was recommended by our friends.
or
We stayed at, which was our friend's recommendation, Park hotel. (Be careful to put the Preposition of "at" in here.)

You may use "where" in,

Park hotel where we stayed at was recommended by our friend. (where + at)

~~~
Oh by the way, the usage of comma comes along; without a space before and with a space after.

I invite you, your parents, and your friends.
They are white, black, and gray.

~~~
Using the quotation marks ("...") always without spaces.
"I was inside the quotation marks," says the man who is outside of them now.

He tells the girl, "I love you."
"I love you too," replies her back.

The teacher announces, "Tomorrow is a holiday."
"Hooray!" cheer the students.

He told me, "It's written 'West' on the map."
"No, it's 'East'," objected me while was driving the car.

~~~
In standard English writing, it's advisable to avoid a statement which starts with a comma clause.
Anyone wants to add?

____________________________
"Brief but not short."
Best regards,

Budi

I disagree with a lot of what you told the poster. First, parenthetical information should indeed be set off by commas. The sentence is fine as is. Second "go to visit" is a statement of a continuing condition and is perfectly correct usage. It need not be put in past tense. The original sentence is correct, but better if the "go to" is dropped, as you suggested.

[QuillingQuillQuiller]

Alright, I admit my failures. Thanks for your correction, especially from Maeve. I know what you mean with boys who study will learn. It was late at night (and a bit drunk) when I was writing this.

Yes, you're right. "whose" is the match in the 3rd one. sorry for this Heaven. I hope you don't mind.

Commas make a difference, but that depends on where you use it and which clause you emphasized on. Sometimes we Can skip for those commas, sometimes we Shall use commas.

In the case of Glasgow, I had my own reason.

Glasgow where ...

A direct subject (without verb) where explains two predicates may leave commas unattached. But that's different when you use a specific subject such as "My brother Rob", I prefer use

Rob, my brother....

and continue without commas. I prefer write a name in front of everything. Even though it's floating but readers would recognize the function.

About the verb unattached, I will always use without commas with a direct object such as,

Eyes-contact of a girl which shows her intention is important to reveal the truth.
(Eyes-contact of a girl, which shows her intention, is important to reveal the truth.)

A short statement. Readers shall emphasize the direct subject that comes without commas.

Like the Rob my brother case, I prefer skipping the commas. Three or above commas, I must find the direct pattern if the statement is,
- a definition.
- a numeric above billions
- continually clause, like "Later, she .... blah blah, then he ...., because it's ... (I hate to start with Because as the starter of the statement.)

The away.
Many of them prefers to stay put on using "away" in negative statement. But I prefer to avoid the "away" in negative statement. Even though it's right, but I sense "away" is always giving out about "gone-later" statement. So I use the "... not far from Bristol."

"away" is a real tricky stuff. I respect for those writer who wish to use the away in negative statement like "Not To", but I never follow this pattern.
I use the away when is followed by the "not" in the main clause, like:

The plane had NOT flown far away. -or- The plane hadn't flown far away.
but not,
The plane had flown not far away.

Even though the second statement has no problem, but I prefer the first one than second one.

[QuillingQuillQuiller]

Very

An expression word that super-matches inside a "quotation marks."

He told me, "She's very very hot!"

He told me that girl is very very hot. (bad)

~~~

-) "We live not very far from you."

... not very far ... (Extreme near, possibly 3 cm) :D

-) "We live not far from you."

... not far ... (Normal)

~~~

The fracture of cutter was found not very far from the body. (Acceptable, to mention that cutter was found extremely near to that corpse, example: 1 cm from his finger. A narrow scope.)

The fracture of cutter was found not far from the body. (Normal state, anywhere nearby around the corpse's radius.)

[Heaven]

Alright, I admit my failures. Thanks for your correction, especially from Maeve. I know what you mean with boys who study will learn. It was late at night (and a bit drunk) when I was writing this.

Yes, you're right. "whose" is the match in the 3rd one. sorry for this Heaven. I hope you don't mind.

Commas make a difference, but that depends on where you use it and which clause you emphasized on. Sometimes we Can skip for those commas, sometimes we Shall use commas.

In the case of Glasgow, I had my own reason.

Glasgow where ...

A direct subject (without verb) where explains two predicates may leave commas unattached. But that's different when you use a specific subject such as "My brother Rob", I prefer use

Rob, my brother....

and continue without commas. I prefer write a name in front of everything. Even though it's floating but readers would recognize the function.

About the verb unattached, I will always use without commas with a direct object such as,

Eyes-contact of a girl which shows her intention is important to reveal the truth.
(Eyes-contact of a girl, which shows her intention, is important to reveal the truth.)

A short statement. Readers shall emphasize the direct subject that comes without commas.

Like the Rob my brother case, I prefer skipping the commas. Three or above commas, I must find the direct pattern if the statement is,
- a definition.
- a numeric above billions
- continually clause, like "Later, she .... blah blah, then he ...., because it's ... (I hate to start with Because as the starter of the statement.)

The away.
Many of them prefers to stay put on using "away" in negative statement. But I prefer to avoid the "away" in negative statement. Even though it's right, but I sense "away" is always giving out about "gone-later" statement. So I use the "... not far from Bristol."

"away" is a real tricky stuff. I respect for those writer who wish to use the away in negative statement like "Not To", but I never follow this pattern.
I use the away when is followed by the "not" in the main clause, like:

The plane had NOT flown far away. -or- The plane hadn't flown far away.
but not,
The plane had flown not far away.

Even though the second statement has no problem, but I prefer the first one than second one.

Although it made me confused but Certainly I don't mind. In fact I'm learning from you and others.
thanks again, :)

[Heaven]

Very

An expression word that super-matches inside a "quotation marks."

He told me, "She's very very hot!"

He told me that girl is very very hot. (bad)

~~~

-) "We live not very far from you."

... not very far ... (Extreme near, possibly 3 cm) :D

-) "We live not far from you."

... not far ... (Normal)

~~~

The fracture of cutter was found not very far from the body. (Acceptable, to mention that cutter was found extremely near to that corpse, example: 1 cm from his finger. A narrow scope.)

The fracture of cutter was found not far from the body. (Normal state, anywhere nearby around the corpse's radius.)

I didn't know this point at all . I thought "not very far" means "it is far but not very!!!" and I never guessed it means "extremely near".
Thank you so much for this and other helpful points.