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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Colloquial&#8221; Does Not Have to Equate with &#8220;Ignorant&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Maeve</title>
		<link>http://www.dailywritingtips.com/colloquial-does-not-have-to-equate-with-ignorant/comment-page-1/#comment-52215</link>
		<dc:creator>Maeve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 14:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=1098#comment-52215</guid>
		<description>Natalie,
I noticed that too. 

However, it seemed to me that some of the commentators were more comfortable with the construction than others.

&quot;An historic&quot; is idiomatic when the words are run together and the stress falls on the second syllable of &lt;i&gt;historic&lt;/i&gt;. It becomes self-conscious and unidiomatic when the speaker pauses after the &quot;an&quot; and then puts the stress on the first syllable of &lt;i&gt;historic&lt;/i&gt;.  Some of the commentators did that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natalie,<br />
I noticed that too. </p>
<p>However, it seemed to me that some of the commentators were more comfortable with the construction than others.</p>
<p>&#8220;An historic&#8221; is idiomatic when the words are run together and the stress falls on the second syllable of <i>historic</i>. It becomes self-conscious and unidiomatic when the speaker pauses after the &#8220;an&#8221; and then puts the stress on the first syllable of <i>historic</i>.  Some of the commentators did that.</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie Wardel</title>
		<link>http://www.dailywritingtips.com/colloquial-does-not-have-to-equate-with-ignorant/comment-page-1/#comment-51992</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Wardel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=1098#comment-51992</guid>
		<description>When I read this post, I thought of the recent election and how the commentators said &quot;an historic moment&quot; when it seems more natural to say a historic moment. 

They were being correct though, despite the awkwardness, and I commend them for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read this post, I thought of the recent election and how the commentators said &#8220;an historic moment&#8221; when it seems more natural to say a historic moment. </p>
<p>They were being correct though, despite the awkwardness, and I commend them for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Trisha</title>
		<link>http://www.dailywritingtips.com/colloquial-does-not-have-to-equate-with-ignorant/comment-page-1/#comment-51987</link>
		<dc:creator>Trisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=1098#comment-51987</guid>
		<description>I love this post...and the comments!   This very eloquently expresses a discussion I have been having of late with my boss regarding grammar used in an ebook we are developing for travel writers.....

First I would like to say that I agree with your point - or what I am inferring as your point - that it is possible to write in the manner that most people now speak and still use proper english.   Colloquialisms are fine, but poor grammar is not.  It isn&#039;t necessary to use the formal style in order to be grammatically correct, and in many cases being overly formal can make your words seem stiff and awkward when being read by others, since most people do not speak in the formal style.

As for televisions shows, although I believe that there are instances where a character speaks poorly because the character is &lt;em&gt;supposed&lt;/em&gt; to be ignorant (a sadly poor example for others but alas, reflective of reality), I&#039;m fairly certain that the seemingly rampant use of poor english is due to poorly educated writers on those shows.   Last year for Christmas we gave a donation to DonorsChoose.org, which raises money for under-funded school projects, after which we received a batch of handwritten thank-you letters from the students in the class we chose, as well as one from the teacher.  These were young kids, so while I was impressed with their genuinely sincere gratitude, I wasn&#039;t surprised to see spelling and grammar errors in their letters.  I was, however, shocked to see how poorly their teacher&#039;s letter was constructed!   How can our students learn the proper use of english when their teachers are unable to lead by example?

I realize that for every poorly educated teacher there are likely dozens, if not hundreds, of excellent teachers, but I suspect that this is a creeping blight that will ultimately spread as under-educated students graduate and go into fields such as advertising, journalism, or other fields where their words will impact other young and impressionable minds.

I know that is already happening to some degree - watching television is not as enjoyable as it was years ago - I can get past an ignorant character&#039;s skewering of the language, but all too often I find myself thinking something along the lines of &quot;hmm....I believe he meant to use the word &#039;perspective&#039; there instead of &#039;perception&#039;&quot;.  It&#039;s clear that writers for film and television, as well as our news reporters and many others who appear on television, have lost the ability to use words correctly, or even to choose the correct word.  The distraction lessens the entertainment value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this post&#8230;and the comments!   This very eloquently expresses a discussion I have been having of late with my boss regarding grammar used in an ebook we are developing for travel writers&#8230;..</p>
<p>First I would like to say that I agree with your point &#8211; or what I am inferring as your point &#8211; that it is possible to write in the manner that most people now speak and still use proper english.   Colloquialisms are fine, but poor grammar is not.  It isn&#8217;t necessary to use the formal style in order to be grammatically correct, and in many cases being overly formal can make your words seem stiff and awkward when being read by others, since most people do not speak in the formal style.</p>
<p>As for televisions shows, although I believe that there are instances where a character speaks poorly because the character is <em>supposed</em> to be ignorant (a sadly poor example for others but alas, reflective of reality), I&#8217;m fairly certain that the seemingly rampant use of poor english is due to poorly educated writers on those shows.   Last year for Christmas we gave a donation to DonorsChoose.org, which raises money for under-funded school projects, after which we received a batch of handwritten thank-you letters from the students in the class we chose, as well as one from the teacher.  These were young kids, so while I was impressed with their genuinely sincere gratitude, I wasn&#8217;t surprised to see spelling and grammar errors in their letters.  I was, however, shocked to see how poorly their teacher&#8217;s letter was constructed!   How can our students learn the proper use of english when their teachers are unable to lead by example?</p>
<p>I realize that for every poorly educated teacher there are likely dozens, if not hundreds, of excellent teachers, but I suspect that this is a creeping blight that will ultimately spread as under-educated students graduate and go into fields such as advertising, journalism, or other fields where their words will impact other young and impressionable minds.</p>
<p>I know that is already happening to some degree &#8211; watching television is not as enjoyable as it was years ago &#8211; I can get past an ignorant character&#8217;s skewering of the language, but all too often I find myself thinking something along the lines of &#8220;hmm&#8230;.I believe he meant to use the word &#8216;perspective&#8217; there instead of &#8216;perception&#8217;&#8221;.  It&#8217;s clear that writers for film and television, as well as our news reporters and many others who appear on television, have lost the ability to use words correctly, or even to choose the correct word.  The distraction lessens the entertainment value.</p>
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		<title>By: Maeve</title>
		<link>http://www.dailywritingtips.com/colloquial-does-not-have-to-equate-with-ignorant/comment-page-1/#comment-51953</link>
		<dc:creator>Maeve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 16:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=1098#comment-51953</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;[In &lt;i&gt;Pygmalion&lt;/i&gt;] the character of Eliza starts off as a London Flower Girl.  To illustrate her &#039;commonness&#039;, George Bernard Shaw had her say the famous line: &quot;I speak proper, I do.&quot; By your arguments, he should never have done that. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;

I can&#039;t think of any argument that I&#039;ve made in this post or any other to suggest that I would fault Shaw for the deliciously low dialogue he puts into the mouth of Eliza Doolittle.  Clean up her grammar, enunciation and pronunciation in the first act, and the play would be pointless.

When I picture the DWT audience, I imagine speakers and writers of widely-differing backgrounds in English.  Comments indicate that we have readers whose expertise matches or exceeds my own. I&#039;m glad they enjoy our content.

But I&#039;m not writing for experts. And I&#039;m not writing for the &quot;anything goes&quot; crowd.

My posts are intended for people who, (like Eliza), have practical reasons for wanting to speak and write a standard form of English. My imagined reader wants to be able to tell the difference between non-standard English and usage that is commercially and socially acceptable according to middle class educational standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>[In <i>Pygmalion</i>] the character of Eliza starts off as a London Flower Girl.  To illustrate her &#8216;commonness&#8217;, George Bernard Shaw had her say the famous line: &#8220;I speak proper, I do.&#8221; By your arguments, he should never have done that. </b></p>
<p>I can&#8217;t think of any argument that I&#8217;ve made in this post or any other to suggest that I would fault Shaw for the deliciously low dialogue he puts into the mouth of Eliza Doolittle.  Clean up her grammar, enunciation and pronunciation in the first act, and the play would be pointless.</p>
<p>When I picture the DWT audience, I imagine speakers and writers of widely-differing backgrounds in English.  Comments indicate that we have readers whose expertise matches or exceeds my own. I&#8217;m glad they enjoy our content.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m not writing for experts. And I&#8217;m not writing for the &#8220;anything goes&#8221; crowd.</p>
<p>My posts are intended for people who, (like Eliza), have practical reasons for wanting to speak and write a standard form of English. My imagined reader wants to be able to tell the difference between non-standard English and usage that is commercially and socially acceptable according to middle class educational standards.</p>
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		<title>By: Alice Peterson</title>
		<link>http://www.dailywritingtips.com/colloquial-does-not-have-to-equate-with-ignorant/comment-page-1/#comment-51940</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=1098#comment-51940</guid>
		<description>I believe that people who write for a living, as on tv, have a responsibility to maintain our language through study and application. Just because a large number of people do something, doesn&#039;t make it right. Yes, it&#039;s okay to show a person&#039;s character through some use of language, but not to have EVERY character make similar mistakes! Teachable moment: the character misusing grammar or vocabulary might even be corrected by another character, yes?
I&#039;ve been rankled for a long time now by the overuse of the word &quot;literally,&quot; especially when misused. &quot;Basically&quot; is also overused. Television and movies take the lead for the ear in the use of English. If the characters, announcers and celebrities use these words, so will the general public. This is NOT a good thing. We are PAYING these people to speak for a living. They need to speak English correctly and clearly, even if it is at the expense of sounding completely &quot;hip&quot; or &quot;cool.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that people who write for a living, as on tv, have a responsibility to maintain our language through study and application. Just because a large number of people do something, doesn&#8217;t make it right. Yes, it&#8217;s okay to show a person&#8217;s character through some use of language, but not to have EVERY character make similar mistakes! Teachable moment: the character misusing grammar or vocabulary might even be corrected by another character, yes?<br />
I&#8217;ve been rankled for a long time now by the overuse of the word &#8220;literally,&#8221; especially when misused. &#8220;Basically&#8221; is also overused. Television and movies take the lead for the ear in the use of English. If the characters, announcers and celebrities use these words, so will the general public. This is NOT a good thing. We are PAYING these people to speak for a living. They need to speak English correctly and clearly, even if it is at the expense of sounding completely &#8220;hip&#8221; or &#8220;cool.&#8221;</p>
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